One of my better arguments from August
2009-08-29 06:07 by Ian
An argument from the Google Finance boards. I have omitted irrelevant posts, cleaned up the ordering, and saved the image posted locally; all with the intent of increasing the readability. If you don’t trust my edits, you can find the original discussion at this location for as long as Google decides to keep it.
Suzireb
Social Security and Medicare. The majority of citizens are oblivious to the fact that most of this government nanny crap started under FDR.
Neither of these 2 MASSIVE programs is constitutional yet so many elderly now rely on these giant ponzi schemes, and they are so ingrained in our national psyche as “rights”, that our generation fails to realize that .gov took control of our lives in the Great Depression. Anything they’ve done after that, or propose to do for “our own good”, is simply a continuation of FDR’s policies. FDR was the worst president in our history yet is revered by millions as some sort of savior. I have a ton of respect for the “great generation” but the fact that they allowed us to start down the road to socialism in the 30’s tempers that quite a bit.
David @Suzireb
Where in the Constitution does it say parking meters are legal??
60srocker @David
The Feds don’t do parking meters. The articles of the Constitution give the Federal government NO domain over ‘the people’, except in cases of treason. The ‘bill of rights’ reinforces that, several times. The preamble to the Constitution doesn’t grant any power to anyone. The articles do all of that. You should read it before you touch your keyboard again.
Credo @Suzireb
Leave. If you don’t believe in the welfare state, renounce your citizenship and leave. I’ll buy you a one-way ticket out.
Ian @Credo
“If you don’t believe in the welfare state, renounce your citizenship and leave.”
No.
Fuck you.
You leave.
If you want to live in a place where your rights exist only to the extent that some small mind in political office doesn’t see the need to strip away the legal framework that protects them, you leave.
If you want to have your life drained by taxes to support those who tell you that you are your brother’s keeper, you leave.
I would suggest you go to Europe where people have evidently decided to live in this way.
I solve problems by voluntary trade.
You solve them by force. By electing thugs who take from those who earn so that their life may be given to you.
I will always have the moral high-ground in this argument.
And anyway: Go where? There is nowhere left for people like me.
This place is ours.
Viking @Ian
Hmm….maybe that Russian dude who predicted a disintegration of the US was right?
Credo can believe in the welfare state all he wants, but in the end it will collapse of its own weight. Happens every time.
Ian @Viking
“Happens every time.”
Yes. It does.
And when it does, all the entitlement brats will follow me and those like me to wherever it is we’ve chosen to stake out a new existence. They will come and complain that we aren’t fair to the poor or some other such horseshit. Anything to live off the work of others. No pride.
This place deserves to fall to pieces. I hope it takes every last worthless eater with it.
In-a-Goddadavida @Leo
Let’s put it this way, the only person who knows how to spend your money best is YOU. Taxation is a very inefficient mechanism for public financing.This is why we are in the mess we are in. The government spends like a bunch of fools and they don’t care about how they spend other peoples money. This is the heart of the problem. That is why lower taxation increases economic activity and the whole situation gets better ofr all.
thinkdamnit @In-a-Goddadavida
“Let’s put it this way, the only person who knows how to spend your money best is YOU. Taxation is a very inefficient mechanism for public financing.This is why we are in the mess we are in.”
Just how do you propose we finance the government, without taxation?
Viking @Ian
Sometimes I feel this way, but other times I realize that most people have no clue about what is really going on, and it is not necessarily their fault. The education system has been taken over by those who have an interest in dumbing down the general population. The media has been as well. There is no way they could get away with this crap if people understood economics and the principles within the Constitution.
A republic, if you can keep it.
Ian @thinkdamnit
How did we do it before 1913?
And besides… The question is malformed. If you are not willing to give up the nanny state, you can’t get rid of the income tax.
Financing the government isn’t the goal. Keeping people free is.
There were temporary income taxes in times of war. In peacetime, the Federal government was financed mostly by tariffs on imports. Then in 1913, the dumbest generation decided to have a central bank and start taxing the rich.
And now, here we stand.
Pop @Viking
Taxes and the govt. are the reason we’re in this mess? That’s funny: I was under the impression that Wall Street and their fuzzy derivatives coupled with private citizens flipping houses caused this, along with de-regulation? I guess I’m wrong about that. LOL!!! Thanks for correcting me.
Suzireb @Viking
secede is an option.
we are so divided that anything could conquer us at this time.
thinkdamnit @Ian
Thanks for not answering the question. Since when do questions have to meet your criteria for being formed correctly? That one probably is not either, right? Or that one.
Ian @Pop
Wall Street couldn’t have damaged us this badly if they hadn’t first taken over Washington DC.
Look at where all these guys in the treasury dept come from: Goldman Sachs.
The Fed chiefs? Goldman
The presidents cabinets? At least one Goldman per administration for the last (I don’t know), four administrations?
Drop the sarcasm, fool. You obviously don’t know what you are talking about.
Ian @Suzireb
“secede is an option.”
I think that is the best possible option.
Bring back the Articles of Confederation and let each state solve things its own way.
One of those solutions will be best. Maybe when the pieces all hit the ground and settle we can rebuild.
If we see fit to do so.
Ian @thinkdamnit
I did answer the question. I said:
“There were temporary income taxes in times of war. In peacetime, the
Federal government was financed mostly by tariffs on imports.”
Your question was malformed because it presupposed a desired outcome:
Namely that the Federal Government should be funded at all.
Googlymoogly @Suzireb
Agreed — Several States banding into a seccession Coalition would go a long way — Back to defense and interstate commerce (only) for the Fed!
Viking @Pop
Wall Street derivatives and housing speculation did contribute heavily to this mess, but you have to look bigger picture (I know it is hard for you day traders to do this) and see that NONE of this would have been possible without fractional reserve lending of fiat currencies stimulated by artifically manipulated interest rates coupled with faulty government policy. The deregulation just opened the door within the larger faulty system to allow the degree of destruction we are in.
Suzireb @Googlymoogly
if there was a chance for the USA to stay “together” ALL sides would have to set aside their principals to support the Constitution in it’s original intent.
thinkdamnit @Ian
O…...K. So, while we are in Afghanistan and Iraq, we leave the income tax alone, but then get rid of it, and rely on tariffs on imports.
Last I checked, the annual U.S. budget is around $3T. We import roughly $2.3T annually. We export roughly $1.6T. Something is not going to add up here. Or, those are some serious tariffs.
Might be good for domestic production though. But what happens when we turn around our trade deficit?
Of course I presupposed that the feds should be funded. Your quasi-answer does the same thing. Are you telling me that there is even a option to not fund the feds? I mean a real option. Not the fantasyland where teabaggers blindly claim that all taxes should be abolished.
Googlymoogly @thinkdamnit
These “teabaggers” have proposed no such thing as abolishing taxes…
The angst is rooted in government waste and corruption….
Let the community handle it’s OWN Affairs. Communitys cannot opporate within a BIG Federal Bureacracy any more than small business can efficiently.
At leat at the local level we can shiitttcan bad ideas AND Shiittcan corrupt politicians with authority and without prejudice!
In Washington they merely payoff to the highest bidder and toe the ACORN Party line so as to benefit from the incessant Character assassination squads to destroy all electoral challengers!
Down with Masive Federal Control!!!!
IN with Local “stick and Move” problem solving Government!
thinkdamnit @Googlymoogly
I see these pictures at every teabagger party, and THM.
Ian @thinkdamnit
What is “THM”?
Also, from the filename, I take it that the editor meant to use those labels to highlight all the things that get paid for with taxes.
Guess what? ALL of that stuff (*ALL* of it) is paid by STATE taxes. Which is a completely different matter. And NOT what these people are protesting.
Googlymoogly @thinkdamnit
They are protesting the FEDERAL Government goonie bear…
I only see 1 (ONE) – No Taxes poster… And that one obviously mean “No NEW”. Ever hear of photoshop by the way?
Let’s debunk the 100% anti- Government myth – OKAY!?
Government has it’s place – BIG Government does not have it’s place in AMERICA!
This “forever grow the Federal Government” mentallity has us in big dire straits.
Time for a Flat consumption Tax like the local and States do….
THe FEDERAL Government stresses the very same tax base that the loacal/State ggovernments rely on, sweeping the money into a Federal Pot.
Local and State have been having to find new ways to tax for decades! That needs to stop.
Why is it a “Stimulus” to fix potholes with Federal tax money – When the Local Community would have the money to do it if the money was left THERE In the first place? Because it supports a huge Bureacracy?
It’s a “DE-STIMULUS” to overtax by the very same token!
Ian @thinkdamnit
“O…...K. So, while we are in Afghanistan and Iraq, we leave the income tax alone, but then get rid of it, and rely on tariffs on imports.”
Ok, let’s start there.
“Last I checked, the annual U.S. budget is around $3T. We import roughly $2.3T annually. We export roughly $1.6T. Something is not going to add up here. Or, those are some serious tariffs.”
Yeah. They are. Our trade deficit would get cleaned up in a big hurry. Tariffs would make domestic labor more competitive (IE, create jobs).
If you’re insinuating that the standard of living in the US would fall, you would be absolutely correct. But it wouldn’t fall for long.
Remember: All those taxes that individuals aren’t paying would go do other things in the broad economy. Some of them would purchase foreign goods (and contribute to taxes). But other people would start businesses, invest, go to school, etc.
I look at it this way: Our standard of living must fall. We can’t cheat economics any more than we can cheat gravity. So if the standard of living is going to fall, let’s at least cause it to fall fairly, and position ourselves for the cleanest possible recovery.
“Might be good for domestic production though.”
I agree, as per above.
“But what happens when we turn around our trade deficit?”
Federal tax revenue falls. But by the time that becomes a serious concern, we will be so well off that there won’t be much to import anyway. Remeber how the US got to be such a powerhouse in the first place: Low taxes. Free markets. Businesses will move to such a place in droves. So, yes. A large trade surplus will hurt the tax revenue. But to be completely honest, I can’t see that as something to “fix”.
But if we are at that point intent on feeding the monster again, there is still the option of a constitutional tax on the states (NOT the 16th amendment).
“Are you telling me that there is even a option to not fund the feds?”
Of course there is! The Federal government exists at the pleasure of the States. If the states have decided they’ve had enough, then why have all the bulk in the Federal side of things at all? Most of your day-to-day interaction with government is with your State’s government. The states can choose to fund their operations however they like. Income taxes, sales taxes, parking meters… Whatever. It doesn’t bother me in the least that I pay taxes to my State (Arizona). I love my state. And if I don’t like my state? Well then I really can “just leave” and move to a state of my choice. With 50 possible options, there is bound to be one that I can tolerate. The less Federal government, the more variable the options.
“I mean a real option. Not the fantasyland where teabaggers blindly claim that all taxes should be abolished.”
Not blindly, friend. More clearly than most of them have ever seen anything in their lives.
Googlymoogly @Ian
If we start putting tarrifs on everything we may as well drop out of the world community,,,
Better to flat tax/consumption tax and put OUR overtaxed industry on even footing with Foreign industry!
It takes the burden off of OUR Productivity and spreads it across ALL Productivity—- Like letting Foreing concerns Pay Tax on what our consumers buy.
Wouldn’t THAT convert the “Trade deficit” into federal revenue? Help some of that WalMart success selling cheap foreign crap into Federal revenue success?
Ian @Googlymoogly
“If we start putting tarrifs on everything we may as well drop out of the world community,,,”
Yup. Our trading partners would be furious.
Not our problem. We have to sort our own problems out for now.
I would couch it to them like this:
“Look… we both know that we are going to be unable to repay our foreign debt under our current economic arrangement. Cut us off from trade if you like. Put tariffs on our goods if you like. That is your right. We might have to fend for ourselves for a few decades. But if we don’t take these measures, we’re going to default on a debt that our parent’s generation was too ignorant to avoid getting into. And a debt that your parent’s generation was naive enough to extend to us.”
Can’t cheat economics.
“Better to flat tax/consumption tax and put OUR overtaxed industry on even footing with Foreign industry!”
Yes, that is another possibility. But have you seen what the working conditions are like in Tijauna? I’ve never been to Beijing, but I hear it’s worse.
Not to suggest that it must be either-or, but that route and nothing else will make most of these whiny little bitches that call themselves Americans hit the streets and riot.
“Wouldn’t THAT convert the “Trade deficit” into federal revenue? Help some of that WalMart success selling cheap foreign crap into Federal revenue success?”
Wait… I’m afraid you lost me at “converting debt into revenue”. It’s starting to sound like a CDO.
Therom @Ian
Ian,
I have read your posts on this thread and I actually agree with you on one major point. Institute tarrifs on many goods, particularly on those goods imported from countries who are not near our economic level. It is not a good idea to train a villager who is accustomed to being hungry every day to do a job and pay them only enough so they can be hungry 4 of 7 days. To that person it is an improvement. We should not expect US labor to sink to that level to be competitive. However this alone does not solve the US economic problems..
Googlymoogly @Therom
Not many of the “Villagers” whom you represent are big in the American Import market.
Start with the slave laboring Capitalist Pigs/Chieftans in those 3rd World Countrys and THEN work your way to OUR Borders! After all -Slavery was Invented in THAT part of the world and IMPORTED HERE! WE abolished it HERE, and THEY keep marching on!
thinkdamnit @Ian
“What is ‘THM’?”
Town Hall Meeting.
You cannot ignore the $9B that the State of Arizona receives from the feds every year. 5% of that goes to transportation. 75% goes to health and welfare.
Googlymoogly @Ian
Ian – Bad plan…
While China happily outsources to surrounding Countrys – LIFTING Them up, they move onto better things. We DiD THAT too (first)! China has it right! They do what America used to do before the class warfare/Social justice demonizers came aboard AGAIN!~
There is nothing wrong with America LIFTING the world.. We’ve done it for 30 Years running and a continous rising GDP all the way! Don’t fall for the “Capitalism failed” ACORN/Obama scampaign!
Just because there is a skew in the trade balance at the moment does not mean that the skew will not favor us again, IF WE REMAIN TRUE TO OUR FOUNDING PRINCIPLES!
You cannot find a citizen in these fledgling Countrys that are benefitting from a trade deficit with us that would not give away everything and run to our shores given the chance! WE are still the best – And WE are still the brightest future on the planet!
Ian @Therom
Exactly. Thank you for stating that explicitly.
I think of it like voting with your wallet. The downside, of course, is a willing sacrifice of your standard of living in favor of a moral principle.
So I would ask anyone: “What is your character worth to you?”
I can’t speak for anyone else. But mine is worth considerably more than a pair of cheap Nike’s.
“However this alone does not solve the US economic problems.”
Yeah… we’re in real deep.
My circle of friends want the states to tax drugs (just as they do tobacco and alcohol). Of course, you’d have to give the DEA the finger in order to regulate them yourself in your own state. But if you’ve read my prior poasts, you can probably accurately guess how I would feel about that. :-)
Again. Not the whole solution. But substantial steps toward it.
Googlymoogly @thinkdamnit
True – You CANNOT IGnore it —- The FED Should have left it in Arizona in the first place! As they should leave the bailout money on the table for the irresponsible New Yorks and Californias, IN the very states that have been responsible all along!
Googlymoogly @Ian
“There is nothing wrong with America LIFTING the world…”
Oh, I completely agree!
“Just because there is a skew in the trade balance at the moment does not mean that the skew will not favor us again, IF WE REMAIN TRUE TO OUR FOUNDING PRINCIPLES!”
Yup. Still with you. Ideally trade balances would be orders of magnitude lower than they are right now. And they should change direction often. Like business partners extending credit.
“And WE are still the brightest future on the planet!”
And even as eff’d as we are, that is still a beautiful and true statement.
That’s why we should all be very angry and very actively getting our collective house cleaned up. If we go under and lose our philosophy, there aren’t many others who might carry the torch.
There is nowhere left to run.
Googlymoogly @Ian
ALERT! Patriot on the boards!
thinkdamnit @Googlymoogly
I assume you are implying that the red states are the responsible ones? Why is it that they all have the worst spending/tax revenue ratio in the country?
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr139.pdf
Ian @thinkdamnit
“You cannot ignore the $9B that the State of Arizona receives from the feds every year.”
Believe me. I am NOT happy about that.
Let me tell you what they’re doing with that stimulus money….
I live in Phoenix. Our city is quite large. I would estimate that 10% of it is torn up at any given time. It has been this way for years as they put in our spiffy new light-rail system.
That light-rail system costs taxpayers about $5 for every pass sold.
State gov’t says: “O s—- guys! We divided by zero when we got that fat wad of federal corn and planned these programs! We can’t pay for them now!”
Governor wanted to raise taxes. Legislature wanted to cut spending. Epic standoff ensues.
Our state government was hours away from shutting down in late June because they couldn’t agree on what to do. Kinda like California, except that we actually stand a chance of getting out of it.
After watching what goes on in my state for the last 7 years or so, I contend that had we been forced to live within our tax revenue (and NOT received a bunch of your State’s money) we’d have been in much better shape.
And what exactly do you think the extra Welfare does? Don’t we have a big enough problem with illegals? Depending on where in the city you are, there are families with 5 children under 12 who can’t speak enough English to pass their classes.
Guess where our State-funded education system ranks?
Free money does NOT EVER replace the virtue that the money would have represented in the hands of the men who earned it.
Ian @thinkdamnit
“I assume you are implying that the red states are the responsible ones?”
Party politics rots your brain.
If that’s the way you’re going to play, I won’t even look at your link.
thinkdamnit @Ian
I was not referring to any Stimulus money. I am referring to the $9B in appropriations that the State of Arizona receives from the Feds every year, as a part of their annual budget. Which is 139% of the revenues they generate.
Googlymoogly @thinkdamnit
You mean — WHY is it that the 40 States with Republican Governors and the Citys with Republican Mayors are in position to emerge stronger and ahead of the rest of the country? Like Mississipi, Texas And Louisianna?
If we were to turn back the stimulus/porkulus Bribefest and pocket even 20% of it back to the people we would emerge Next Month. IF Not we are headed for the cliff! STILL!
Everything Liberal progressive like Michigan, Wisconsin, California, New York and Illinois is hanging off the clkiff and have little hope no matter what we do from here!
thinkdamnit @Ian
“If that’s the way you’re going to play, I won’t even look at your link.”
Read what I was responding to.
Ian @thinkdamnit
“I was not referring to any Stimulus money.”
Oh, I know.
We used lots of that unearned money to build a rail system that is putting us deeper into debt. And making those around me with short memories yell from the rooftops: “WE NEED MORE FEDERAL MONEY!”
We’ve used lots more of that money to fund schools and hospitals that are overburdened with people who shouldn’t be here because of our giant welfare magnet (which YOU also paid for).
Jesus… Now that I look at it that way, why are you defending the Feds? Their taking all your money and giving it to us to waste!
McCain was the first person I’ve ever heard called a RINO (pronounced “rhino”).
Republican In Name Only
I can’t do everything around here. If I had had my way, we’d not have taken a dime of it.
“Read what I was responding to.”
You mean this?
“True – You CANNOT IGnore it —- The FED Should have left it in Arizona in the first place! As they should leave the bailout money on the table for the irresponsible New Yorks and Californias, IN the very states that have been responsible all along!”
Where is there party politics in that? Googlymoogly is spot on.
Both of those states have a history of shameless groveling for federal money.
CA is going to do it again in the near future.
They also both happen to be blue states.
Casper @thinkdamnit
Please tell me how this information makes your point. From what I saw, although only glanced, this is a report on how many fed $ collect from a state versus how many fed $ spent (returned back) on that state.
Googlymoogly @Ian
You Know — If the Fed stopped robbing the States (Taxpayers) and making them jump hoops to get it back (Incidentally putting all the corrupt politicians and Bureaucrats in the loop for self serving Nepotism and Corporate favoritism), then maybe California nd Arizona and maybe Colorado could get together JUST BETWEEN THEM And decide what is a best way to make a Transportation Triad — Or any other State to State co-development Co-Op!
Wipe your eyes and Imagine the ingenious and industrious World we would live in!
A Union Made up of States — States serving their communitys!
Novel Huh? We could call it the “United STATES of AMERICA” A World without FEDERAL stagnation…
A World of Solutions that serve the community. A world where Florida doesn’t subsidize weak ideas in Arizona! A world Where Florida Subsidizes itself! And Arizona subsidizes ITSELF!
Casper @Googlymoogly
Googly-
If you are going to persist in this ever increasing stream of logic and clear communication, I fear that thinky will have to find someone else upon which to pin the parrot moniker.
Ian @Googlymoogly
God… what a great place that would be. We’d get the smartest people from all over the world coming here.
Former subjects of despotism would come here and write new science and new art. In a place where they knew they would be rewarded for it, and their Rights respected.
Provided, of course, that they keep their philosophy.
Guys, I’m hitting the sack. Thanks for arguing with me.
Therom @Ian
I think the strongest words you have written are “what is your character worth to you?”
Some like googly do not care what happens to the American Worker or our society as long as he get his. He has stated this many times about how outsourcing is good because the added profits fund his retirement. The reality is the added profits make fat cat even fatter and some people can get the fallen scraps. The more a fat cat makes the better the scraps. It is a feudal system not unlike the nobility of old Europe and as long as we think like some and enact no change we will continue to be at its mercy with fewer and fewer people controlling ever increasing percentages of wealth. Fortunately we live in the USA and can change this without violence. People should learn to think for themselves and not follow one specific party line. As you mentioned tariffs could help. We should also pull out of the WTO. I am not a xenophobe, but it is nuts how we ship more US dollars out of the country than we get back.
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Imagine, if you will, a palacial brothel of alabaster marble.
You are escorted in by a naked pubescent girl that throws rose petals
for you to walk on.
You enter and are stunned by the erotic visage before you.
Beautiful, bosomy women are everywhere…lounging in semi naked
splendor…beckoning you to lie by them.
Out of the corner of your eye you spy a hairy, naked man with a huge
erection, sitting alone.
You run to him and sit squarely in his lap.
S C H L O O P ! Up your wazoo goes the throbbing one eyed monster.
Of all the discussions on the DOW board, YOU chose the loudest and
biggest one.
...sort of like the schlong you sat on
Now you have the nerve to complain your ass is sore???
Can I push that stool in for you a little further?
— Tim · 2009-09-02 02:15 · #
Haha! Ranger’s comment! I took it out because it wasn’t related. But when I read that, I laughed so hard I cried.
— Ian · 2009-09-02 02:18 · #